Attawapiskat debate

• For some reason, this has grabbed a hold of my attention as of late. I felt the same way about the people left behind after Hurricane Katrina. This is some of the debate that I've been having on my friend's wall on Facebook. This particular friend is aboriginal. J-girl and S-dude are white. IT's pretty interesting how they have all the answers, but never address S-girl herself, and they are HER friends... sheesh. And the way that J-girl goes on and on about education - she ought to get some herself - that girl cannot spell... it's pretty bad. lol
  
  
  S-girl - If there were any time to talk about the Attawapiskat issue...this would be a prime opportunity to show it to the world. Only in Canada...

  Tuesday at 6:42pm · · 1
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  G-dude - Thank you...I will share this...

  Tuesday at 6:51pm · · 1
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  S-dude - If 90 000 000 dollars is a true amount, how the hell does that money not cover basic expenses for housing, health care, education, etc for a 5 year period for 2000 people? Band councils continue to profit on many reserves, coruption seems to be a huge issue, and the people continue to live in abject poverty. Clearly the current system of throwing money at the problem does not work.

  Yesterday at 2:16pm ·
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  S-dude - And a request to send in troops? What could possibly go wrong there...

  Yesterday at 2:18pm ·
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  G-dude - The disaster assistance response team (DART) has a regiment of engineers who could build housing overnight....the Harper regime sent them to Haiti to erect tents in a tropical country and yet will not send them to help freezing women and children.....the Conservative response was bring a box of donuts and take away the chequebook..this is not a financial crisis but a humanitarian crisis....

  Yesterday at 3:32pm · · 1
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  S-dude - Other then the immediate humanitarian assistance needed, someone needs to account for the 90 000 000 dollars sunk into the place and find out why the hell after all that money was spent, there is still no adequate housing.The DART does not contain a "regiment of Engineers" engineers are a small part of a larger medical component (roughly 200 people if memory serves). The DART is largely used for medical assistance, the engineers mostly provide safe drinking water as part of that team (they provide other skills as well but are a small contingent), there would be no "overnight housing". If the military was deployed to the area the same tents would go up and the housing crisis would not be immediatly fixed, though I'm sure progress would be made.

  19 hours ago ·
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  Bambi Dawn Excellent point, G-dude, and so true. People have no idea how much it truly costs to get food and supplies up to a community like that. Sandra said in another post that the Chief has all the documents online for all to see where the money was spent. I bet the people who are freaking out over this "90 Million" have never been to a remote community like that...

  19 hours ago ·
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  Bambi Dawn BTW... 90,000,000 divided by 2000 people, divided by 5 years equals 9,000 per person, per year. I know that food is about double if you can get it to a northern community by land in a truck. But if you have ice roads in winter, and boats in summer, OR if you have to fly it in, that can almost quadruple it. Think of that now in terms of getting building supplies there, clothing, etc. Yeah... we don't want aboriginal people to complain anymore about how we stole their land and killed their children in residential schools, the past is the past, right? Harper said he was sorry about that. Yet, we scream and cry when they take "our" tax dollars, dollars we make while living and working on land we stole. Yeah, SO unfair...

  19 hours ago ·
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  S-dude - Oh for Pete's sake, I am not "freaking out" about the 90 000 000, nor do I believe this was the only money coming into the community, or the first of federal and provincial dollars that went into this community. I do believe that the system needs a bottom up overhaul, especially in light of allegations of corruption among chiefs and band councils. Other than where is the majority of Canadian community mobilzation to assist, I would ask where is the greater aboriginal communities involvment? There seems to be no issues in mobilizing armed "warriors" to protect land claims, but no hue and cry to get help to this needy villiage (no I am not suggestiong aboriginals are not Canadian). I've personally lived in far northern communities and provided medical care there, conditions are far worse then most Canadians know, infact intolarable in a 1st World country. Yes there are increased costs of living, but the system breeds apathy and in many aboriginal reserves the struggle to rise above the poverty is seen as "you think your better" and not promoted and celebrated. And that last sentence comes from Aboriginal Dr's and nurses I've worked with. So from me there is complete agreement that the needs of the villiage must be immediatly handled, but there is far more to it then increasing government funding and time to move out of the reservation system as it currently (mal)functions.

  17 hours ago ·
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  Bambi Dawn Oh... ok. It just kinda sounded like freaking out when you asked the question... how the hell does 90 million dollars not cover expenses, and why the hell, after all that money was spent, is there not adequate housing. Maybe you weren't freaking out, sorry, that's just how it looks to me, the reader. :)
  
  Hey I like how you are blaming the Chiefs and Councils. Great job! Its oh so funny how people are so quick to point to them as the ultimate ones to blame, the scapegoats, if you will. If you want to look at what is corrupt, I think it all comes back to the government agenda to "kill the indian in the child", which was the policy of the government for every aboriginal child for over 100 years. And those that didn't die (which is over 60% of the children who went to residential schools) have certainly experienced a death on other levels within their minds and hearts. But, sure, lets blame THEM.
  
  I am aware of the cultural perspective of not outdoing one another in the community. If only we could take a lesson from THEM on that! It's not apathy. Their culture is one of sharing, and ensuring survival of the community as a WHOLE. People care about each other in a different way, and easily give things away when they see that someone needs or wants them. What Generosity! "We" tend to step on each other for our own personal gain most of the time. That is how this dominant culture operates. We look upon the tradition of not outdoing your neighbor, and think of it as bad. It is not. If only we white people would open up and learn how to understand THEIR culture, their ways, and operate from that vantage point when attempting to provide help, perhaps things would happen for the better. No one likes to be patronized. I'm sure you didn't enjoy it when I was patronizing you about blaming THEM. Well, I highly doubt they have EVER enjoyed being patronized by the paternalistic agenda of our government.
  
  I am glad to hear that you have lived in northern communities and experienced the third world conditions there. But again, I have to say that it is pompous of you to say that YOU know what the problems are, and that you know what the solutions are. And you do it, here, on S-girl's wall? Really? Did you even stop to ask her, or G-dude what THEIR ideas are? Well why would you? You are still operating from your lofty position of white privilege. Personally, I agree with both S-girl and G-dude, who pointed out that this is a humanitarian issue, and a human rights issue. And it is. We should ALL be concerned about it.

  3 hours ago ·
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  Bambi Dawn Also, if you look on Youtube, there are many people testifying on video, young and old, advocating for their community of Attawapiskat. I'd attribute that to being a warrior cry for help on behalf of people in their village. Just saying...
  
  
  
  
  
  
  And in another post on S-girl's wall...
  
  
  

  S-girl shared a link.

  First Nations leaders stand behind chief of Attawapiskat: Atleo

  www.edmontonjournal.com

  Calling it "this country's moment of reckoning in its relations between First Nations and Canada," Assembly of First Nations Chief Shawn Atleo on Tuesday said aboriginal leaders are rallying behind the embattled community of Attawapiskat in northern Ontario.

  · · Share · Tuesday at 12:21pm ·

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      Bambi Dawn That is something else, isn't it? I was quite mystified and angry to hear that they were sending in "third party management" Please. What a crock. What an insult. It's the same freaking MO that didn't work before. I"m glad that they asked that Third party guy to leave. It was a BAD move on the part of the government to do that.

      Tuesday at 12:50pm ·
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      J-girl - Really? Sad a third party has to come in and ask the question??? Where did 90 million dollars go? Perhaps I see this in a different light. Many of the ladies I work with ask the same question..Where did our Government money go? It was given, but the people on the reserve did not receive it. But the Chief and his family live in a nice house and drive new cars??? This is not JUST a government blunder or mistake, this is also poor management of monies NOT going where it is supposed to go. It has always been easy to play the blame game on the Canadian government for every thing that goes wrong. This shit storm goes deeper than that, and more than 1 entity is to blame. Transparancy...for everyone. Then we would know where the money is being spent, and who is getting more than their fair share.

      Tuesday at 7:35pm · · 1
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      S-girl - Chief Spence has been accountable for the funding though. Those documents are available online.

      Tuesday at 7:37pm ·
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      S-girl - This is a very good article J-girl...I'm not trying to change your mind or your opinion, but give it a read. As well, it's unfortunate that the actions of a few can have such a negative impact on so many.

      Tuesday at 7:41pm ·
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      S-girl - http://apihtawikosisan.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/dealing-with-comments-about-attawapiskat/

      Tuesday at 7:42pm ·
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      J-girl - I guess I have been listening to the women I work with, who do not blame the government...they have watched the wealth oh their reserves go tit's up. They know where the blame lies. These were reserves with great wealth, and now some have gone bankrupt. I do feel bad S-girl for the little ones who have no heat, or proper housing, but at the same time this is not new news for this reserve. My hope is that money will be given here, they get the nessesities of life, and then some, but they also need to show how the money they have been given has been spent thus far. They also choose to live in an are where there is so little work, no one can even attempt to up their own standards of life. To have purpose is important...

      Tuesday at 7:53pm ·
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      J-girl - To live everyday with no hope of even being able to leave is no way to live either. Work IS important, it gives the youth something to strive for. I would hate to think that all these kids have to look forward to in life is a government handout. They NEED to leave that place and have a real life!

      Tuesday at 7:56pm ·
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      J-girl - How many generations have never left? That's not living.

      Tuesday at 7:58pm ·
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      S-girl - J-girl, they don't choose to live there, this is where the Canadian government told them they had to live when the reserve system was created. And again, Chief Spence has provided all the necessary documentation on where the money went...and yes, it is horrible to have no hope. This is what has happened to hundreds of thousands of the aboriginal people in Canada through government assimilation policies. As for those other reserves...money makes many people do strange and greedy things. THAT is truly sad.

      Tuesday at 8:23pm · · 1
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      Bambi Dawn I understood that the 90 million was used over a few years. Plus its a remote community so it costs a lot just to have the basics.

      Tuesday at 10:04pm ·
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      Bambi Dawn So its not as bad as it was first made out to be.

      Tuesday at 10:05pm ·
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      J-girl - S-girl I disagree..Why stay, Canada is a big place..If where you live has no future, no prospects, becausrethis is where "Canada" put them? Are they trees? Are they rooted there? Perhaps a point has come where having a life does not mean staying in the reserve.

      Tuesday at 10:16pm ·
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      J-girl - And YES..what happened in the past was wrong..NO one disagrees with that, but at what point does the past become the future? When no one has the gumption to leave. When does the blame end? I am well aware of the attrocities of the past, but this is a wake up call that perhaps reserve land is no longer the answer in life. Education, and the purpose of being able to work, and have a life. It's like spending you entire life blaming your parents for shitty things that happened to you in your life, and that's why you can't succeed...You would tell them, you can only blame them for so long, and you yourself need to make the effort to better your life. We can't change the past, but it's damn time we start looking to the future.

      Tuesday at 10:27pm ·
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      Bambi Dawn Alot of stuff IS in the past, but much is still quite present. Did you know that the last residential school closed in the mid 90's? That's not that long ago. I don't think you can tell a whole people group to just "get over" a systematic intention of what sums up to be genocide. People are horrified that 6 million jewish people died during the holocaust, but there was a holocaust right here in this country. When the government wasn't having the "savages" killed outright, they were killing their food supply, taking their land, putting them on reserves where it was VERY difficult for some to eek out a living. Then they took their children, put them in residential schools, where they didn't teach them anything beyond the basic labourer skills. While there, kids were abused, starved, and killed by the adults there. Then they were given blankets with small pox. ANd when they got TB, they weren't quarentined, but were made to play with the healthy children so they would get sick and die too. After that, kids were scooped out of aboriginal homes again, but this time they were placed in white families, who treated them like crap. Not all of them, but a good many.
      
      I think there is a good future. The solutions are not without it's problems. White people have alot to learn about how to treat aboriginals with dignity and respect. And that trust has been broken down in a big way. It's dismissive to think that the past is the past - it's within our lifetime that these things were going on. Trauma is trauma, alot of people won't ever fully heal from that. We can't change the past, that is true, but we can't change our future for the better if we keep doing the same old thing that has always been done. This power over approach hasn't worked before, and it's still insulting today. Aboriginal people need to be a part of the leadership that creates the solutions, not a recipient of the governments paternalalistic efforts. Aborginal people should be invited to that table, and treated like the equals that they are.

      Tuesday at 10:44pm · · 1
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      J-girl - Thanks Bambi..I am not saying shit didn't happen..I work in a woman's shelter where the majority of the women are native. But the woman who RUNS the facility is also native. Half the woman who are care workers are native. I listen to their stories. Articals are fine, but to see and listen to them gives a brader perspective on things. I worked with a fabulous woman who retired at 68, she herself new the only way to break the cycle that has become all to common place...you need to leave the reservation to have a life. You need to have purpose. I also am tired of people thinking that for some reason that I have no empathy or am stupid about history because I see the future, rather than always dwelling on the past. We can't change the past, We can learn from it...and change the future. Because the present ain't working.

      Yesterday at 7:21am ·
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      J-girl - I am also not asking people to get over it...but at what point do we stop and look at a system that's no longer working? You also don't want to know some opinion's that have been shared about themselves. It's very eye opening. To sit and listen to real people, and not T.V or internet articals really does give both sides. And I don't mean native and white perspectives either.

      Yesterday at 7:30am ·
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      Bambi Dawn Perhaps the woman you speak of, HER answer was to leave the rez, but that's not the answer for every aboriginal person. You have to remember that you vantage point is one of white privilege. For example, you are a woman, right? So you've probably felt some of the effects that male privilege has over you. It's assumptions that are made because if you're in a position of privilege, you never have to experience what it feels like to be oppressed in that way. S-girl, for example is an amazing dynamic successful woman. She grew up in a white family, but she will never be able to fully escape the fact that people will see her and make certain assumptions about her, JUST because she in fact is aboriginal. That is something that you and I NEVER have to even think about. That is called white privilege. Our vantage point renders us incapable of being experts on what's best for aboriginal people. White people, because they are the dominant group in this country, tend to expect everyone else, including aboriginals, to fit into our paradigm, our world view. So if your friend moves from the rez, and becomes more like "us", then that works better for her in some ways, because that is how our society has been formed by colonialism. But many aboriginal people don't want to have to fit into that, and why should they? There are ways to find a peaceful middle ground if we step out of our position of privilege.

      Yesterday at 8:16am ·
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      J-girl - And that's all I have been trying to say...but the "REZ" can not be sustained indefinatly. There is no future on the Rez. That's the point I have been trying to make. I am not here flapping my gums because I feel somehow superior, or feel I have somehow have the right to tell people how to live. On the contrary, this country is a melting pot of all cultures not just 2. It's not the white man vs the aboriginal man..it's about looking forward to make a sustainable way of life for a group of people who have been wronged, and let down in the past, making sure, they have ALL they need to put one's best foot forward to take the next step in the journey of life. Not staying put in a place with no way of being able to move forward, or spending generations blaming those people from our past. I am disgusted by the way the "white" man has treated the native peoples of this land, but it is also cruel to keep them caged on a plot of land given to them, that so many feel they can't leave. They can leave if the proper steps are put in place. They can have a life outside the "rez" they can have a life without the stigma that has so cruely attatched itself on them. To keep their culture intact, the proud people that once roamed this land...The reservation can't be sustained. There is a better way, and throwing money at the problem is not the answer. Allowing a proud people to stand up and take charge of their lives...That's the answer.

      Yesterday at 9:02am ·
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      Bambi Dawn Hey J-girl, I am not trying to make you look like the bad guy here. :) It sounds like you do your best to contribute to the well being of society.
      
      That being said, I also disagree with you on many points. First of all, while reservations do have their weaknesses, they also have strengths. Since they've been in existence for well over 100 years, people have developed into communities, families, and such. It is naive to expect that people should just up and leave the rez. Many people do leave for a time, maybe to get education and such, but their goal is to find ways to improve their community. Yet for others, it would be another trauma to leave the only community they have known to move to the "foreign" lands of Canada where these supposed "opportunities" abound. For the people who DO leave their community, they don't always find it easy either. Stigma still prevails, and so it's harder for an aboriginal person to find quality work. Many people end up living just as impoverished as they had been in their former communities. They are often not easily accepted into "our" society. I can give you an example. I have 2 sisters. One is white, and my biological sister. One is aboriginal, adopted into our family. Their names are M-girl and C-girl respectively. C-girl had a really bad health condition a couple of years back. She went to a doctor and was summarily dismissed. She ended up losing so much weight and she kept going back, and she kept getting dismissed. Finally, she asked M-girl to go with her so she would be listened to. And THAT time, she WAS listened to. She finally had surgery, that week, and the surgeon said that she was lucky she did, because another week or two and she would have died. DIED. Dismissed. It's unacceptable. And that is just ONE example, in "our" society with all these "opportunities".
      
      People aren't caged on reserves anymore. Aboriginal people are a diverse group, just like any other. There are a wide range of experiences and influences that effect what choices aboriginal people make for their lives. The point is that they be given that choice, not having the government continue patronizing them. The government has often felt they had the answers, but all they do is give lip service. There was a Chief in BC who advised the Chief in Attawapiskat to NOT accept third party management, because the Chief in BC was also promised similar things, and the government dropped the ball there too. Harper recently made this big apology about colonialism, and residential schools and such. But then he cut funding to programs that help people heal from those experiences. Lip service doesn't work - the proof of the heart is in the actions.
      
      And frankly, I disagree with your "answer" that people just need to leave the rez. That's an over-simplified answer to a very complex set of issues of a very diverse people group. :)

      19 hours ago ·
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      Bambi Dawn http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/11/30/bc-first-nations-infrastructure-fixes.html

      B.C. First Nation has warning for Attawapiskat - British Columbia - CBC News

      www.cbc.ca

      A B.C. Chief has a warning for the First Nations that have declared an emergency...See More

      19 hours ago · ·
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      J-girl - When I hear the words...some can't leave, I ask myself why? When I worked at a nursing home a few years back I met a woman who I will never forget. She came to this country under refugee status from Rwanda. Her husband, father and brother were butchered in the many "conflicts" that country had. She was also sexually and physically asaulted by the "military". She came to Canada with 2 small children and nothing else. While waiting for her landed immigrant status, she taught herself and her children English. In the 15 years since then she had gone to school, and has become a registered nurse, raised her children as a single mother, owns her own home that she is paying for. She left...and her reasoning was? There was no future for her or her children where she was. No hope for making their lives have purpose, to teach her children YOU CAN have and be anything you want. She is a hero in my book, and an example for everyone who says I can't. We can agree to disagree on this front. I am not here to be the bad guy, just look at a ongoing problem for a people who are "stuck"...literally, and when I feel in life if you don't like how your life is going, you feel that you can't get out...you can. I to live a life and raise a family somewhere, whether it was given to you, or you were located there, does not mean you have to stay. A single woman, who lost evertyhing, and had nothing, never used the words "blame" or "can't"...and she made a wonderful life for her and her children. If she can do this, anyone can.

      13 hours ago ·
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      J-girl - My thought is..if your life is not working, if you feel your children deserve more if you wake up everyday without purpose....you and only you have the ability to change your situation. To spend your whole life pointing fingers, and felling that you can't leave...yeas you can. I do work with women who in life have had the shit end of the stick, from abuse, mental illness, and addiction. And that IS the mind set...it may take years to break the vicious cycle, to emphasize that the DO matter, their lives HAVE purpose...but the first step has to be taken by them. We can help them along their journey, and advise them on how to get to their goal, but it is them themselves that have to have the want and desire to get to their main target. And you know what? When they reach the goal, the look of pure joy is amazing. To finally know that you have the ability to be the master of their own destiny is the best feeling they could ever feel. An entire generation has been told they can't, we still say that so many can't...I know so many who chose to say I can...

      13 hours ago ·
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      Bambi Dawn This one woman did an incredible thing, after suffering much. Wow. That truly IS amazing, and I'm not being factitious when I say that. She sounds like a very resilient individual. I applaud her.
      
      I'm not sure how this relates to the situation here in Canada. Her culture, her experience is different than the aboriginal experience here. We can't make such a direct comparison. She may have had a happy stable life up until the genocide in Rwanda, which may have contributed to her resilience. I don't know. Some people cope better than others. I'm sure there are many Rwandans who's resilience is much lower, and suffering from a more severe form of PTSD who cannot do what this woman did. I'm not arguing with you that people of any descent CAN and DO carve a life here in this country by learning how to conform to the dominant culture. Not everyone can, or should do that. That's why we are NOT a melting pot (that is an American term). In Canada, we don't subscribe to that ideology. Here, we have Multi-Culturalism, an ideology which says that one isn't not expected to let go of their culture and assimilate into ours. Yet, even though there is a government policy on this, the dominant culture still has this expectation of conformity.
      
      It's easy to say that the opportunities are there, they just aren't utilizing them. It's a very narrow ideology. I think that it's more systemic and structural. That's why it's wisdom for the Chief in Attawapiskat to not accept a temporary interim solution for the problems there. The problem is larger in scale than the individuals it effects.
      
      Did you know that the people of Attawapiskat don't own the mineral or oil rights to the land the government put them on? And when the oil companies were there, they left behind tons of diesel and such to seep into the ground and pollute their water? What if the government empowered the people there and handed over the rights to the land? It's just another example of how this country has so marginalized a whole group of people. And then they blame those same people when they aren't able to carve out a decent life.
      
      Yeah... we are gonna put you here, and control your movement here for about 100 years, but even though you live here, you can't own anything that is of monetary value, like oil, cuz we are gonna come and take that, and while we are there, we are going to literally shit all over your land and pollute your drinking water. And then... we will leave, with the oil, with money from the oil company, and we will leave all of our waste behind. It will keep you poor, and it will make you all sick, but hey, if you can't pull yourself up by the bootstraps and leave the only life you've known, leave behind loved ones and assimilate into our culture, where you won't be treated like an equal either, well, then you deserve the plight that you're choosing.
      
      J-girl, this is what I'd like to see. Instead of you telling your aboriginal friend here what you think the solutions are, perhaps you could take a more listening stance and find out what SHE thinks the solutions are. She has a vantage point that you and I don't have. She, being raised in a white home, having been assimilated into our culture as much as one can be, she STILL feels that there is something to be said about how relations have developed between aboriginal people and the government in this country. Instead of hammering her with questions and opinions, why don't you listen. She has more insight than we do, because of her heritage and experience. She has an intimate understanding of both sides of the issue, therefore she has more expertise than you or I. While I have enjoyed debating with you here, the fact is that hers is the voice that really matters.

      11 hours ago ·